November! What a month. Indeed. Have a Wheel of Time Reread Redux, won’t you? You will? Excellent!
Today’s Redux post will cover Chapter 35 of The Shadow Rising, originally reread in this post, and Chapter 41, originally reread in this post.
All original posts are listed in The Wheel of Time Reread Index here, and all Redux posts will also be archived there as well. (The Wheel of Time Master Index, as always, is here, which has links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general on Tor.com.)
The Wheel of Time Reread is also available as an e-book series! Yay!
All Reread Redux posts will contain spoilers for the entire Wheel of Time series, so if you haven’t read, read at your own risk.
And now, the post!
Before we begin, a reminder that the format of the Reread Redux has changed: from now on I am only going to be commenting on chapters in which my reaction has changed significantly from before, based on the knowledge I had at the time.
Also, short scheduling note: owing to my other blog series getting pushed back a week so as to avoid Thanksgiving, I’m planning on doubling up on the Redux Reread so that I can maintain my every-other-week schedule. So, there will be another Redux post next Tuesday before going back to the “every two weeks” regular schedule. Orange you excited? I knew you would be!
Onward!
Chapter 35: Sharp Lessons
Redux Commentary
So, this chapter’s commentary is where I first named Egwene the Ooh Ooh Girl, a moniker which I think, unsurprisingly, resonated with a fair number of my geeky brethren and sistren out there in Nerd Land, and I’ll quote the description here again for those who might not remember it:
I used to not get why people got so annoyed with Egwene, but reading this now, I see it, because she is totally the “Ooh! Ooh!” Girl.
You know who I mean: that annoying girl in grammar/high school who was always the first – and middle, and last – person to raise her hand in class; and she wouldn’t just raise it, she would shoot it up like a cannon going off, it was like she was trying to bust her own hole in the ozone layer over there. She’s the girl who is completely convinced she knows everything, and is unfortunately just smart/talented enough that it is very difficult to convince her otherwise. She has an opinion on everything, and is eager and excited and impatient and confrontational and tactless and even though you know she at least theoretically will go on to do great things one day (or at least definitely graduate college), right then she basically drives everyone there including the teacher right up the goddamn wall.
Egwene is totally that girl. And yet, though I see why others would therefore be annoyed with her, I cannot get annoyed with her, because I was also totally that girl.
If there is any one most awesomely accurate call I have made about a WOT character over the course of the original Reread, I tend to think it is this one. And I remain both surprised and gratified that Jordan saw fit to make an Ooh Ooh Girl one of his primary protagonists, because that is something that happens sadly infrequently, and because he made her one in a way which (in my opinion) made her a Hermione Granger instead of a Wesley Crusher.
And if the preceding sentence made perfect sense to you, congratulations, your geek card is automatically renewed for another year and you do not need to retake the written test. Go you!
I love that characters like Egwene exist, because we need Ooh Ooh Girls in the world, and I don’t just say that because I was one. We need them, and we need to encourage them. Now more than ever.
Chapter 41: Among the Tuatha’an
Redux Commentary
[What we missed: Extremely Shady Traders join up with Rand’s entourage, and Rand does the canny-yet-also-crazy dance re: who they actually are. Aviendha rails against fate, Moiraine spies on everyone, and Mat gets a hat. Meanwhile in Tanchico, Jaichim Carridin is a coward, Liandrin and Co. are being evil and looking for something, and Egeanin embarks on her studies for Slavery Might Not Be Totally Awesome OMG 101. Elayne gets drunk and pulls mustaches, and Nynaeve almost gets ganked by her to-be-fiance’s cousin. Meanwhile meanwhile, Perrin hunts Trollocs and finally comes off the worst for it. Then in this chapter, Perrin finds refuge among the Tinkers, again, and he and Faile come clean to each other.]
“He leads a life of violence,” Raen said sadly. “As you do. A violent life is stained even if long.”
“Do not try to bring him to the Way of the Leaf standing here, Raen,” Ila said briskly, but not unkindly. “He is hurt. They all are.”
“What am I thinking of?” Raen muttered. Raising his voice, he called, “Come, people. Come and help. They are hurt. Come and help.”
Men and women gathered quickly, murmuring their sympathy as they helped injured men down from their horses, guiding men toward their wagons, carrying them when necessary. Wil and a few of the others looked concerned over being separated, but Perrin was not. Violence was the farthest thing from the Tuatha’an. They would not raise a hand against anyone, even to defend their own lives.
I don’t know that I ever definitively gave my opinion in the original Reread on the Tinkers’ brand of total pacifism (though chances are I did), but I think that what I would say about it now is at least subtly different from what I would have said years ago.
The older I get, I find, the less comfortable I have become with condoning violence as an appropriate response to, well, almost anything, and the more I want to endorse compromise and tolerance over their polar opposites. And yet, I retain enough of my youthful pragmatism to acknowledge that violence is a reality that’s not going to go away just because I want it to, and that sometimes a refusal to defend against violence may ultimately cause more harm than not.
I think that years ago I would have been much more immediately dismissive of the Tinkers’ commitment to non-violence, in much the same way that I think Jordan (subtly) is as well, via Perrin. This is not to say that he (or I) had no respect for the Tinkers’ philosophy; it was more of an instant conviction that such a stance is admirable in principle but utterly unworkable in reality.
I still mostly believe that, really, but I think now that conclusion is laced with far more hesitation and… guilt, I guess. Meaning that I feel like there should be a way for me to feel good about endorsing pacifism as a practical measure, but that as of yet I have not found a way to do that that doesn’t sound like wishful thinking.
It’s a conundrum, in other words. A vastly important and yet also vastly knotty one. It’s complicated and hard and I kind of hate thinking about it, and yet I must, for there are plenty of those who feel no compunctions or hesitations whatsoever about the applicability of violence to solve their problems. And people who do not understand why they should even consider the Tinkers’ point of view, people who do not understand why this question is knotty and difficult and hard, are deeply dangerous people, and one must consider carefully how best to thwart them.
And I think that’s all I’ve got to say at this particular moment, so join me next week for more. Cheers, my dears.
Yes, Leigh, your enduring legacies – the ooh ooh girl and headdesks. Concepts to live by.
Even after having gone through the Star Trek TNG rewatch, I still like Wesley Crusher, so there ;) But yes, I love the unapologetic Ooh Ooh girls :)
Regarding pacifism, I have basically the exact same feelings – there’s so little I would honestly feel is worth killing/dying for (protecting people aside) that it just boggles my mind that we get into these situations in the first place.
Poor Wesley Crusher. He can’t even escape criticism in Randland. His dislike spans universes.
Do we ever learn how Wise Ones began going to Rhuidean? We see why the Aiel clan chiefs go per Rand’s walk among the columns. Yet, I do not recall that the vision said that the Aiel Wise Ones should go as well. Did they always go to Rhuidean (both through the rings and the columns)? Or was that practice started only after the clan chiefs began going to Rhuidean.
I agree with Leigh. Pre Malden, the Perrin/Faile conversation in Chapter 41 is one of the few (only?) times that acted as a mature young woman. I have to give the devil her due.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
I didn’t even stop to think about it, I just nodded my head at the Hermione Granger / Wesley Crusher comparison. Made perfect sense. Geek card secure.
I wouldn’t be so quick to say we always need to thwart people who don’t hesitate to choose violence. It matters what cause they serve. There are some who are indeed dangerous and rough, but they stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. Fortunately, in my experience most of those people realize that it is a solution for the chaos at the boundaries of society, and not a choice suitable for everyone. They may not always agree with pacifism, but that doesn’t mean they don’t understand it.
Hmmm….I have never found Egwene’s “Ooh!, Ooh!” ness nearly as irritating as Hermione or Wesley. I don’t know why that is, save for perhaps there is the fact that almost everyone in the story thinks they know it all? Maybe it is that her certitude in her convictions and views are not nearly as onerous as other groups (i.e. Whitecloaks, most of the ‘old school’ Aes Sedai, etc.), and she has earned our trust as a Hero more than these others. The most irritated I remember being with her (other than the usual problem of various characters will not communicate with other groups well) was near the beginning when she was arrogantly projections her desire to ‘get away’ and have an adventure onto the Super Boys. This was largely due to the Super Boys (well, Rand really) being the main protagonist up to this point in the story and everyone else just being an add on.
I would be careful in projecting a character’s views onto the author, even if in the end they are very similar. I get the feeling that RJ intended the tinkers and their views for careful consideration, and I always thought that there was some sort of build up with Perrin and the Way of the Leaf that was never fulfilled. A Checkov’s gun that never quite went off. I don’t know if that is because RJ passed away before completing the series or it was just lost in the shuffle of many plot threads. If anything leads me to believe that RJ did not hold with the pacifistic view (from what little I know about the author’s life he did not, though he may have respected the idea), it is the absurdly straw man-ish way they are written and presented in the context of the books. If, after the Last Battle, Perrin had forsworn violence and joined the Way of the Leaf, or if it had played a significant part in his decision to ‘give up the axe’ (rather than just his obsession to save Faile), this might have lead somewhere.
@5 Nick31
The Orwell quote about sleeping safe by night because of rough men who stand ready to do violence on our behalf is not wrong, but it’s…incomplete. It depends very much on how we define “us”. The same people that one tribe views as valiant soldiers may be seen, quite accurately, as thieves and mass murderers by the neighboring tribes. Every clan or tribe or nation exalts their own warriors as heroes, but they also hate and despise enemy soldiers who may be fighting with the same motives and methods.
Those who don’t hesitate to choose violence may not have qualms because they divide the world into an “ingroup” and an “outgroup”. Their ingroup must be defended and protected at all costs, while hurting and killing members of the outgroup is not just permitted but admirable. If soldiers regard every human life as meaningful and valuable, they’ll have qualms about killing people, even if they’re ultimately willing to do so. If they don’t have any qualms or doubts, then it’s much more likely that they don’t feel the need to justify killing foreigners. And we really do have to oppose that kind of thinking unconditionally; even if these kind of soldiers wind up on the right side, it’s only by accident, since their worldview ignores “right” and “wrong” in favor of “us” and “them”.
There are plenty of brave British soldiers who fought the Germans, then went on to commit crimes against humanity in Ireland or India. There were American soldiers who distinguished themselves in combat against the Japanese, only to join the Ku Klux Klan when they returned home after the war. Everyone has their own motives for fighting, and sometimes-often- it’s more about where they were born than what they actually think is right. The Whitecloaks fight on the side of Good in the Last Battle, but we see many Children that are eager to persecute channellers and imaginary Darkfriends. The Seanchan fight on the side of Good, and they commit every crime we see the Darkfriends commit, including evil mind control and slavery.
Tinkers choose to value every human life as much as their own. I’m not a pacifist, but I think there’s something admirable in a philosophy that completely rejects the idea that other people are less valuable than us just because they’re Other.
Ganked? To-be-fiancé’s cousin? I admit I did not understand that sentence not one bit…
Oh yeah and I totally got the H to W reference also, not even an eyeblink hesitation. Although I do think you’re giving poor Wesley the short end of the stick, I liked that kid. Until he went all mental of course.
Ooh Ooh girl is the right description. Though I liked Egwene better in the early books than the later ones apart from the awesomeness of Gathering Storm, but thats more because she took on the Aes Sedai always right/must be seen to be right thing. I wish they had become more like the Aes Sedai of AOL which were more balanced.
Re the Tinkers actually this is something most people miss including myself unless you go digging in places like 13th Depository and think about Rands final battle with DO but actually the Tinkers ancestors – the original Aiel – and their following the way of the leaf serve a very important function in stablising the Pattern by their Jain way of being ‘pure, moral’ (doing no harm, accepting the Patterns will if you think of the DO as being classed as evil and doing the opposite of that) and are therefore integral threads. I think this is why they were seen as so precious by the Aes Sedai at the time who understood this and used them to enhance via song things in the Pattern such as crops (along with the Ogier). Thats why its so imperative for the AS and Lews Therin to try and preserve the Aiel as well as them being a symbol of the peace of the AOL now lost in the War of the Shadow.
So in this way, although they dont understand why, the tinkers actually are making a powerful choice for good regardless of the violent choices others make against them. I agree with older Leigh on this in the real world abit – I respect the choice of pacifism and try and use it but also I take a balanced approach and will fight when necessary. Still I think that despite the drawbacks in life, making that choice is still a powerful message whether it gets you killed or not.
AndrewHB @@.-@
Probably around the same time the Clan Chiefs did, and also likely at the instigation of the Aes Sedai. We just don’t see it because the POV we have of the time is from one of Rand’s male ancestors. I imagine that if the ancestor had been a female, we’d have seen the beginning of the Wise Ones’ selection rituals rather than the Chiefs’.
One regret I have from the Gathering Storm is that we don’t see the scene where Rand (on the hairy edge of meltdown) is taken in by the Tinkers outside of Ebou Dar. We only see some after-effects as Rand thinks about the encounter later. The kindness of the Tinkers along with the kindness of the everyday citizens in Ebou Dar (when Rand collapses) appear to have some effect on his thought patterns, but it’s not overt.
We can only wonder if RJ intended for Rand’s Tinker camp visit to be “on camera” and BWS couldn’t fit it (or didn’t think it would work … who am I to say?). Or maybe RJ’s notes were specific that it was only to be mentioned in Rand’s mental flashbacks.
Given that the Tinkers don’t have a huge effect on the story line otherwise, I guess I would have liked to have had that interaction emphasized more when Rand is later mulling over the fate of the world.
thepupxpert @8
Nynaeve’s “to-be-fiancé” is Lan, whose cousin is Isam. Isam (as Slayer) nearly kills Nynaeve in Tel’aran’rhiod.
Comments on the redux chapters:
I always liked the bit where Amys turns into a reptile. Or a fish, but probably a reptile. She’s Aiel.
Loved the Perrin & Faile conversation here, and her reaction to his semi-wolfhood.
I’m the kind of Ooh Ooh Girl who wants to answer every question and provide all the information. I’m lucky I repeatedly got employed doing so in public-land visitor services, but even there I struggled to resist interrupting and correcting my colleagues.
Commentary on skipped chapters:
Aviendha compared Elayne’s lips to “loveapples.” WTF are those.
Rand, a person can say completely contradictory things and mean all of them.
Hats are important. I have ocular albinism so am sensitive to light and can’t see a thing in bright sunlight without a hat. I wouldn’t have lasted a day in The Waste without The Hat.
“Everyone wants someone in their life, someone who cares for them, someone they care for.” Thanks for the reminder, Thom. Tell me something I don’t know. (Actually, I like his speech)
13. AeronaGreenjoy
Loveapples? manchineel, I guess.
re pacifism and the Tuatha’an, I’ve always taken Uno’s comments in tDR about the Tinker woman who visits Moiraine as RJ’s definite statement on them: “Cowards, Masema? […] If you were a woman, would you have the flaming nerve to ride up here, alone and bloody unarmed?” And you can read Aram’s breakdown and murderous conversion to The Prophet’s beliefs at the end of the PLOD as another comment on pacifism, when it is forgone.
additional to my little joke about “love apples”, has anyone considered that “forkroot” might be the mandrake root? Some of the aspects of mandrake pharma appear to be those of forkroot as described in WOT …
Many Randland cultures have a dual male and female leadership. In the Two Rivers it is the mayor/village council and the Wisdom/women’s circle, for the Aiel it is chiefs and Wise Ones. The requirement to go to Rhuidean to lead is for both male and female leaders.
Sorry, if this is a bit off-topic, but I´ve seen Doctor Strange recently and since then I just really want to talk with some WOT fans about some stuff in that movie that felt very WOT-ey (WOT-ish?) to me. (No spoilers ahead, don´t worry.) Trouble is, I don´t know any WOT readers in the “real” world, that is there´s no one I could see the movie with and say stuff like “oh, those things are so ter-angreals” or “why are you explaining saidar to him, aes sedai? Saidin works differently,” or “riiight, mirror dimension, so you´re basically entering Tel´aran´rhiod in flesh, aren´t you” – and be understood.
Also, that is probably the reason I find the movie a bit disappointing: the few little WOT-ey bits make me want the whole thing to be… longer, with slower character developement, story-arcs that would seemingly never end…
Does all this make any sense to anybody?
Also, to the Hermione and Wesley (yes! geek card!) I really, really want to add Clara from Doctor Who. Probably because I´m going to Whocon this weekend and I´m pretty sure there won´t be any WOT fan (there was none last year) and that it will make me feel sort of lonely even among hundreds of geeks (it did last year). Which is probably the main reason for this whole comment…
@14 — I was just thinking about Uno’s comments in tDR and connecting those comments to RJ rather than Perrin’s entire character. I completely agree with your assessment.
Re: Pacifism Conundrum. A good bit of me feels that this conundrum exists for the contemporary “us” because of the society in which we live. We live with justice systems that, uh, frown upon violence. It has even reached the point where an individual can be convicted and sentenced for merely defending oneself. Add to this the ever increasing amout of Political Correctness society attains. Non-physical-violence is cracked down upon — bullying, et al. Violence is frowned upon to the point where contact sports are being vilified, and no individual’s opinion can be wrong because saying so might hurt that person’s feelings.
I’m not espousing my opinion for or against the above statements; rather, I’m just saying that this is the lens through which a majority of people view the world.
The world that RJ created doesn’t have those concepts as being prominent. If I lived in a world violent conflict decided most everything, where “mean” people wouldn’t simply troll me on the internet or flip me the bird on the highway but would literally kill me, where there is no Wikipedia or Google Maps and, therefore, I have no idea into what or who I am walking…I’m pretty sure that an innate/instant violent response wouldn’t be out of place at all. To me, it seems like a simple survival mechanism against the unknown.
If historically (in Randland), the “unknown” is something that will almost certainly get you killed, it’s easy to have a “every one is evil and violent until proven otherwise” mentality. To have the “I won’t defend myself against all that evil” mentality would indeed seem very stupid. In the context of Randland.
I think the conundrum stems from contemporary readers projecting their current worldview into the world in the books.
I was recently reading a philosophical essay about the concept of “What if we’re wrong” about a lot of our current beliefs that seem to be unassailable. Today, many people view things or people in history as being wrong due to what we currently believe. Why do those people have to be wrong and we have to be right? Why can’t both parties be right, but in very different contexts. I bet that people in 1,000 years will look back on our current society and wonder how we could all be so stupid. Food for thought.
@18 MattM
We do live in a world where violence isn’t generally acceptable as an automatic response, and where harming others, even in minor ways, is increasingly viewed as cruel and morally depraved. I’m not going to defend every single consequence of this belief; the free speech of adult citizens is more important than the feelings of their neighbors. What I will defend, though, is the overwhelming superiority of a world where violence is not simply accepted as a proper response to every offense.
Have you ever read about the Prisoner’s Dilemma? There are countless examples and variations, but the basic concept is that two parties make an agreement. If both of them keep it, both benefit; if one keeps it, the liar benefits and the honest party suffers; and if neither of them keep it, both suffer. When everyone is constantly scared of their neighbors, knowing that they could respond with violence to any real or imagined insult, cooperation becomes practically impossible. Non-violent conflict resolution allows people to have settings between Off and Kill them All, to act in a way that serves their best interests rather than wasting their wealth and lives in endless warfare.
Randland almost falls to the Dark One because Team Good Guy can’t stop fighting each other long enough to unite against the literal personification of All Evil. Whitecloaks hate and fear Aes Sedai, Aes Sedai hate and fear male channelers, and they’re so busy worrying about each other that the looming threat of the Forsaken goes largely neglected. If there was a Randland equivalent of NATO, the Borderers wouldn’t have to stand against the Blight by themselves, and they could have come together against the Dark One from the start. The only thing stopping them is their own mindset, their need to believe that cooperation=weakness.
Assuming that everyone different is evil makes it impossible to focus on fighting people who are actually evil. You say that both parties can be right in different contexts, but we create our own context. When you only use a hammer, every problem looks like a nail; when you only use a sword, every disagreement turns into murder. Maybe it’s better to defend ourselves against evil through practical and intelligent methods, rather than building the kind of society that obsessively relies on violence because they’re too scared to look for another way.
#7 @dptullos – I see where you’re coming from about how soldiers often dehumanize their opponents. That’s … probably necessary unless you want an army full of people who aren’t disturbed at all by killing other people. (Pro tip: we don’t want that.) Can that dehumanization be taken too far? Absolutely. And are there soldiers who go from legitimate violence to illegitimate? Yeah, that happens. But it’s NOT what happens most of the time. The number of soldiers who went on to join the KKK after WWII is an tiny, tiny fraction of the total. Statistically, veterans are by far one of the most law abiding groups in the US or Britain. But the fact that some aren’t doesn’t change Orwell’s point (or mine). There exist those who would, given the opportunity, do us harm. There are others who not just would, but are actively working to do so. This is undeniable. And there are those among us who stand between us and those who wish us ill, and will not hesitate to be violent in our defense. Is that violence ideal? No, but we live in a fallen world. It’s not what we should want, but it is what we need.
As for the moral equivalence of “us” and “them”, I reject that. There is a right side and a wrong side in many conflicts. Not all perhaps, and sometimes those lines can get really blurry. But other times the distinctions are crystal clear. More on that below.
#18 @mattm – I was with you up until that last paragraph. That’s the kind of moral equivalence I’m talking about. We might change our opinions on history as we learn more about the motivations and factors driving each side, but that doesn’t change what is right and what is wrong. No amount of time is going to pass and make the Holocaust anything but pure evil. There is no context that makes the horrors and millions of deaths that Stalin inflicted on the Soviet Union right. History is full of examples where both sides in a conflict are wrong, or both sides resort to evil in order to achieve victory, but that doesn’t make meaningless that concepts of right and wrong, good and evil.
This is where the Tinkers philosophy fails: violence is not inherently evil or good. What matters are intents and outcomes. Stealing an example from William F. Buckley, if I shove an old woman into the path of a bus and cause her to get run over, that’s very different from me shoving her out of the way of an oncoming bus and saving her life. You can’t just say I’m pushing old women around, even though in both cases my action was the same.
You can respect that the Tinkers completely reject violence (and I do), but an honest assessment would also acknowledge that their choice to do so means that sometimes they will willingly allow evil to occur. That, I think, is the point RJ was trying to make.
@19 dptullos
I wasn’t attacking anybody. I was merely presenting a point of view, which is thus: We can’t inject our worldview into the the world of the books because the world in the books is, obviously, not our world. I wasn’t trying to make an argument stating that the world in the books is better or worse than our current world; rather, I was simply pointing out that they are very different and shouldn’t be judged based on each other.
Nice, Leigh. Tiny little political commentary at end of Ch 35 summary. :)
Hi there Leigh try “shades of grey” by Billy Joel where he explains about changing his points of view when growing older
Tessuna@17, I’m so looking forward to seeing Dr Strange this weekend. I’ll be watching for WOT moments now. I’m also a Dr Who fan. My puppy’s name is Clara Oswald.
I’ve always thought of myself as somewhat of a pacifist but last week when two big bulldogs came in to our yard and went after my 9# Jack Russell puppy, then started to come toward my husband…. If I’d known balefire I’d have used it on those evil darkhounds in a heartbeat. Luckily the shovel he was carrying chased them off but proved to me I’d make a bad tinker.
@17. Tessuna I didn’t associate anything in Doctor Strange with WoT. Interesting points you make. You have, for certain, made me think that Moiraine could be played by Tilda Swinton quite well.
@20 Nick31
Though veterans are, as you say, less likely to break the law, the problem I was talking about didn’t have anything to do with rebellion against society’s rules. British soldiers who committed war crimes in Ireland or India weren’t criminals in the eyes of most of their fellow subjects; they were brave men protecting “us” against “them”, and their actions were sanctioned by legal authority. American soldiers who joined the KKK might have been criminals to most of the country, but their own families and communities often viewed them as patriots, and the Southern legal system protected them from punishment.
America and Britain didn’t usually have to fear soldiers coming home and becoming criminals, or soldiers deciding that they didn’t want to do what society told them. We had the opposite problem; once society or the government gave an order, soldiers followed it. The vast majority of soldiers didn’t become gangsters or serial killers, but plenty of them slaughtered Irish dissidents or “pro-Communist” liberals with the same loyal dedication that they’d previously shown against the Third Reich or the Japanese Empire. For these men, their service wasn’t about defending good against evil; it was about serving “us” regardless of the consequences to “them”.
“And there are those among us who stand between us and those who wish us ill, and will not hesitate to be violent in our defense.” As an American, I generally benefit from having a powerful military to defend my nation. It’s just that sometimes “violence in our defense” involves installing puppet dictatorships to torture and murder dissidents. We were the wrong side in Guatamala and El Salvador, and soldiers obeyed the call to illegitimate violence just as surely as they had fought for the right side in WWII.
This isn’t a unique problem for soldiers, and it’s not exclusively their fault. It’s the result of a culture that isn’t willing to accept that even our “best option” will have horrific consequences, that innocent people sometimes die when we choose to use violence. Of course, innocent people also die when we choose not to use violence; there’ s no easy way out. But propaganda promises a simpler world, painted in black in white, where right and wrong always match up neatly with “us” and “them”, where we never have to feel guilt or doubt.
Tinkers accept that everyone is real, and that every life is valuable. As a result, they decide not to take any life, under any circumstances. I do not make their choice; I am not a pacifist. But to legitimately advocate the use of violence, we have to reject the perverted morality of Allied propaganda during the Second World War. Evil people are just people who made the wrong choices. Once we forget that, then we forget that we can fall, just as they did, if we come to believe that we are good by definition, rather than by choice.
@21 MattM
I am sorry that I sounded like I was attacking you. I did mean to attack the point of view you presented. I’m not a believer in cultural relativism, and I frequently compare and contrast fictional worlds to the real world. Though RJ’s world is certainly different, sometimes it’s different in morally neutral ways and sometimes it’s different in evil, horrifying ways. The Seanchan come to mind. (Also, sometimes it’s different in ways that make it better than the real world. But not often. A whole lot of drama relies on having horrifically screwed up situations for the main characters to cope with.)
dptullos @19
The Borderlanders themselves aren’t immune to this inherent urge to fight each other. After all, they left the Borderlands en masse and headed for Far Madding to confront Rand Al’Thor. Granted they were driven by Prophecy, but it says something that rather than just send small delegations, they send full fucking armies to the confrontation. Never mind that that amount of men could only be fodder against a channeler of Rand’s power.
On the Doctor Strange parallels:
GATEWAYS. ‘Nuff said.
Pacifism in our world is one thing, but something else altogether in a setting where the literal Embodiment Of All Evil’s at play. If someone flipped a switch and every human in Randland converted to the Way of the Leaf, the Shadowspawn would conquer the world all but instantly.
@27 alreadymadwithborderlanders
Yeah, the Borderlanders tend to solve their problems with violence, too. They just have fewer opportunities to fight each other because they’re busy fighting Trollocs. I’m unsure why their secretary of state equivalent thought sending great big armies south would work better than diplomatic parties or small groups of scouts; there are a whole lot of opportunities for something to go wrong once you start crossing other nations’ borders with regiments of your troops.
The southern nations could be lending the Borderlanders their support against the Trollocs, but the uneducated think that Trollocs aren’t real, while those who know better are too busy playing power games. Team Good Guy really doesn’t get off to a good start, but how much dramatic tension would we have if people made good life choices?
@28 Karthak
If someone flipped a switch and everyone converted to the Way of the Leaf, the Dark One would be out of luck. His goal is to get humans to choose evil, not just to rely on the consistent but apparently choiceless evil of Trollocs or Mydraal. The Dark One isn’t a human ruler, interested in land or secular power; he desires control over the hearts of men, and that’s precisely what the Tinkers generally refuse to give him.
AMOL suggests that the Dark One has no intention of ending the world, and a world controlled by Shadowspawn, where Tinkers refused to abandon their beliefs, would be just as unsatisfying and frustrating for him as a world where he lost the war. More, really; he could always hope to win a future war, while widespread human refusal to do evil even if the face of persecution and death is pretty much the opposite of what he stands for.
I had forgotten Elayne was trying out Sea Folk customs in TAR. Hah!
Two other important tidbits are her advice to Egwene that Rand does have to be hard and see people as pieces, in order to make tough decisions that will protect everyone else (the needs of the many argument). Obviously there is a limit to this, and Rand crosses that line later as he gets crazier and more influenced by Moridin, but the fact Elayne understands this and agrees with it shows her political astuteness once more, and it’s nice to have someone actually in Rand’s corner (since Lan is only there as long as it doesn’t hurt Moiraine, Moiraine herself is desperate to control him into doing what she thinks is best, Mat is dealing with his own problems and still laboring under his “gotta stay away from crazy male channeler” mindset, and the Aiel are only with him because prophecy says he’ll save some of them). Also, the observation Egwene makes about two cultures with channeling women where the women are respected and integrated into society, without binding upon them. This is where she began to realize, even before it was learned what the Oath Rod did, that freeing the Aes Sedai of the Oaths might be a good thing. Sadly it doesn’t last thanks to Siuan’s impassioned arguments, but at least Egwene does keep the idea around for the oldest Aes Sedai to retire into the Kin. And she never suggests the Windfinders at large or the Wise Ones should be bound (outside of becoming Aes Sedai). It just would have been nice if the lesson, the same one Nynaeve speaks of after her test in ToM, had sunk in.
Still love the dream-within-a-dream bit with snake-Amys. And it’s funny, I remember when I first read TSR being upset with Amys for not understanding how important it was to Egwene to meet with the other Supergirls, both because of the critical need to exchange information and because she had given her word to them as well. But then I remembered Amys had no way of knowing this (because Egwene didn’t bother to tell her upfront, likely fearing immediate forbiddance) and that indeed, refusal to obey or keep her word, even for something that actually was important, showed she was not a good student and could end up getting killed by her willfulness. And really, if she had told Amys upfront and asked for the very arrangement they end up with here, going to meet them with Amys or one of the other Wise Ones with her, it all would have been fine. But of course the impatient Ooh Ooh Girl who thinks she knows everything had to do it her own way. Sigh. Well, at least the important lesson was learned…and indeed, while obviously Egwene was Wesley Crusher to a very vocal part of the fandom, we do still need Ooh Ooh Girls like her, especially now.
Poor Aviendha. The first time around, of course, I had no idea what was up with her (since we had no idea yet about Min’s vision or who the three women would be), so it was far too easy to assume either what Rand thought was the truth (hatred in response to what the prophecy said he’d do to the Aiel) or that it had to do with thinking she’d be betraying Elayne by staying close to him. But now that we know, the whole thing is very sad and just makes me want to hug her (though she’d gut me with her spear if I offered). And oh, is Seana’s comment such foreshadowing!
Also: poor Moiraine. Although obviously the first time around I didn’t know what her exact fate would be, her words here (and many places after up until the docks) were more than ominous and chilling enough to hint what she saw in the rings wasn’t good. Without knowing, I wasn’t grieving or mourning for her…but I seem to recall a cold knot forming in the pit of my stomach. Yet she perseveres anyway, even despite the small hope of Mat and Thom being able to rescue her, because it is what must be done and what she swore to do. Badass.
LOL…Aviendha describing Elayne to Rand in graphic detail still cracks me up! I’m not touching the letters because they just make me tired, but I do have to agree with something past-Leigh said later on, that Rand’s reason for liking his women is very unique among fictional (or any) romances–he likes that Aviendha hates him for who he is rather than for being the Dragon Reborn, and here he mentions that Min “only occasionally” insults him. This, along with Elayne and Aviendha making him feel like a complete idiot all the time, of course translates into a love for the ages by WOT terms (and anyone who subscribes to Slap-Slap-Kiss), so I really should have guessed Aviendha’s role sooner.
Re: Mat–I remember when he first pays for Kadere’s hat, thus explaining Perrin’s Wolfdream vision, that I was both confused and let down, since it didn’t seem to at all explain why such a thing was so important as to justify a prophetic window. Setting aside that we had no idea yet how iconic Mat’s hat would become (not that that is why prophecy showed this moment, hah!), I figured it out once I realized that Mat would never have gotten the hat if he hadn’t come to the Waste, and if he hadn’t done that, he’d never have gotten his gifts from the Foxes, which is obviously what really made the vision so critical. (And the ashandarei, after all, was in the vision too.)
Speaking of figuring things out: obviously no one has any reason to believe this, but I remember I did notice Lanfear’s sigil as the chapter icon the first time around, and realized what it meant (though having Rand actually mention her helped too). Did I figure out she was Keille? Yes and no. Her appearance obviously threw me off, but her voice, her attitude, and her combs tipped me off…until Isendre showed up. Then I wasn’t sure which of them was her (I just knew both were of the Shadow). I did not, however, figure out about Asmodean, for three very good reasons: Kadere was very obviously evil, at this point the Forsaken are still figures of dread and danger to us (so we wouldn’t expect Asmodean to be someone foppish and ineffectual like a gleeman), and we knew nothing of Asmodean’s background as a musician. I think I did start figuring it out later though when we got to see Natael’s conversations with Mat and Rand, since his commentary sounded a lot more like something a Forsaken would say than Kadere’s. (Not to mention seeing Keille argue with him about Rhuidean being “not what they were here for.” Why would a merchant say that to a gleeman?)
As for Rand’s comment, I think Leigh’s past confusion can be cleared up if we take his words of “watchful eyes” to mean having Moiraine around spying on him in general, not that he specifically knew she could use her head-jewel to do so–after all, the fact Moiraine could do this was never revealed on-screen except in her last (solo) scene in TEotW and later when Egwene is with her in her tent in TFoH, so really, how could Rand have known? So that explains why he is confused in Chapter 37. Him figuring out about the peddlers, though, is the sort of deductive skill I do ascribe to Rand. He may not always be the sharpest tack in the box, and he has made some doozie mistakes, but he is still quite smart, and it isn’t rocket science to guess that any unexpected people showing up to meet him and the Aiel when no one knew they would be there would right away make them suspicious. Especially when he already knew Lanfear was after him to get his allegiance and was planning to nab Asmodean as a teacher for him.
For some reason, the discovery of the massacre at Imre Stand (even though all we got was empty rooms and splattered blood) always stuck with me as very memorable and chilling. Probably the Nothing Is Scarier approach, and the way it partakes of old stories about missing/disappearing people and villages.
Kadere’s comment after Isendre views the carnage: very odd. Not only does it mirror Herid Fel’s note in LoC about belief and order, but the Thirteenth Depository has opined (and I agree) that the Shadow is all about the perversion and destruction of knowledge. Even Moridin, who has collected so many books and prophecies and artifacts from the Age of Legends, hoards it only for himself and, in the end, wants to see the destruction of everything. And yet, this comment. A hint there is slightly more to Kadere? A red herring to throw us off? Or Jordan briefly using him to emphasize one of his key themes of the series?
Rand’s “which did he choose?” comment: perhaps he meant choosing between Lanfear (as in, her plan for Asmo teaching him) and the Aiel? Since we find out later he never guessed Natael was Asmo and he would never join Lanfear the way she wanted, the only way he could be choosing between them.
The exchange with Lan, as emo as it might seem, just breaks my heart in light of what happens to Rand later on. But considering how the series ends, there’s some hope too.
Mat’s thought about crossbows is a nice foreshadowing of the rapid-crank ones Aludra develops for the Band later on. I wish I could remember what my first thought was once I realized what was going on with him and his new memories though; I suspect it was rather like Leigh’s “Dude, sweet!” For the sake of completion I’ll say I think the memories were actually given to him, not just copied; after all, it’s not like the Finn didn’t know he’d come back to them and think he’d never leave the Tower of Ghenjei alive, and there’d be no reason not to give them if they collected memories and emotions of his own in return.
As for the medallion, no way we could know at this point it blocked channeling, unless the coldness was supposed to remind us of how it feels to be Healed. But in retrospect I do wonder why it was cold; was it just in reaction to Moiraine and the Wise Ones channeling at the Shadowspawn? Or was Lanfear or Asmo doing something? If the latter, they must have been inverting their weaves or else Rand and/or the women would have felt it.
Tanchico: not a lot to say here since this is all mostly old news and irrelevant later on. I do appreciate though the complexity of the politics there, and I have to say that while having it fall to the Seanchan was bad in terms of them coming back to Randland, it never horrified me the way the fall of Ebou Dar did. Probably because I didn’t really have reason to get attached to Tanchico and it was already described as “rotting” and falling apart, morally and politically if not physically. Even without the names of the peninsulas reminding me of the Seven Hills, and the circles, I think I connected Tanchico to the latter days of ancient Rome, and that’s another reason its fall didn’t affect me much. On a side note though, the system of having both a king and a panarch, each with their own armies and duties, one invested by the other, rings a bell for me. Anybody know what historical place or nation had a political structure like this?
Otherwise: I never had the aversion to Egeanin Leigh did at first. Maybe because I could tell right away she had a good head on her shoulders (so I didn’t mind being made to like her), and so could be made to see the right of things re: Aes Sedai–the fact she wasn’t immediately turning Bethamin in, even if holding her in the a’dam was still disturbing, is already proof she is beginning to view things differently. Though her opinion of the Whitecloaks (and Gelb) certainly helped too. And what a random minor character reappearance! As for Carridin, ugh; if I hated him before, his eagerness to give up his family members in place of himself made me loathe him beyond all reason. I totally enjoyed his ultimate fate, and look forward to getting there again. Also still hate Liandrin (I still think she got off lightly, even though being bound up in that shield forever, and maybe made a damane one day, is pretty bad), but I agree she made a great villain precisely because of her petty nastiness. I also have to say that even though she was Black, I feel sorry for Marillin because of what Eldrith was most surely doing to her poor strays.
(Again, kind of a waste that Marillin never ends up doing anything and we never find out what happens to her after Mellar’s breakout. And really, the whole Black Ajah coven was a subplot Jordan let fizzle which I think could have been resolved much better–yes, having Moghedien get taken captive by Nynaeve and then later put in the mindtrap made for other interesting plots, and there were more important characters to deal with including other Blacks, but it feels like a waste that he had such a large group to begin with, solely to put the fear of Turning into the girls, and then never capitalized on it. Ah well.)
Side note: in retrospect Moghedien’s servant act as Gyldin cracks me up, especially when she says she was cleaning just as Liandrin asked her to. Of course we know this will have bad consequences for Liandrin later on…
It really is strange how likable Coine and Jorin were, when no other Sea Folk after (except Talaan) were. I wonder why Jordan changed that? I do also wonder what happened to them, since they were sailing to where Suroth had her fleet holed up. Hopefully they just ended up as damane, and maybe got away during the Sea Folk prison break Mat set off in Ebou Dar…
Still love Domon, especially how he was paying for a soup kitchen. The mutual dislike he and Juilin have for each other (based both on him being a smuggler and the Illian/Tear feud), which ends up turning into respect and a grudging friendship as they are forced to work together, was always something I rather enjoyed. I also remember thinking that Rendra’s nearly identical appearance to Liandrin was going to be something that would bite the girls later, that somehow Liandrin would end up taking her place and make them pay for Tear. Luckily that was just a red (hah) herring. Also speaking of Domon, I always found it odd that not only did Nynaeve and Elayne never tell Rand how he helped them, but that they didn’t recognize his name when they met him in Falme–didn’t Rand tell them about the captain whose ship he, Mat, and Thom took down the Arinelle? Maybe not, though. In any event, as much as they had to goad him, you can tell Nynaeve does trust Domon since she spills the beans to him about Sammael…though I guess a good counterargument is she thought no one would believe him if he told them.
Yup, getting drunk always makes for the best plot development! :P And also the most…interesting remedies… I never disliked Elayne for what she said though. Probably because I realized she was being rebellious and trying to understand her mother as another woman. And the number of lovers she’s been through recently is a bit high. Of course neither of them know about the Compulsion (I always found it odd that while Elayne dismissed what Mat told her of Gaebril, apparently Thom never thought he should caution Elayne about the danger, even though he was there in Caemlyn when Mat told them what he overheard), but I don’t think that undermines the truth in Thom’s observation. Morgase, as we see when we get in her head later, is indeed a lonely woman, and the fact Rahvin used Compulsion doesn’t change the fact he was taking advantage of that. It’s why seeing her get together with Tallanvor is so satisfying for me, even beyond her getting over the Compulsion and choosing to make a new life for herself–not because I think a woman must have a man to be complete, but because her loneliness shows she wanted one. And after all she’d been through, she certainly deserved happiness with one, especially one like Tallanvor.
I always found it odd that Nynaeve gets to see Asmo walking around Rhuidean, and other than when Birgitte reveals his identity to her later, nothing comes of it. I mean this tells us he’s lurking around (but we already knew he would be thanks to Lanfear) but it only matters in that it provides a hint he’s Natael due to the latter’s interest in Rhuidean. Nynaeve never gets to communicate this to Rand, he finds out who he is on his own, Nynaeve never has Egwene warn Rand about Asmo, and…it’s just dropped. Ah well, anything that makes Birgitte show up is awesome. I also found it interesting that the presence of Slayer (and, well, Fain and Shadowspawn) causes an actual shadow to fall over Emond’s Field in TAR.
So even though it’s a lie, Luc’s backstory gives us yet another example of an awful person coming from Murandy. :P But hah, yes, the fact Isam can’t help being annoyed about losing the throne of Malkier (and I suppose Luc also being angry about not getting to be First Prince of the Sword) so that he almost gives himself away is priceless. As for Alanna, I do agree that while obviously she’s going off to have a good cry about Owein, it’s unclear if she might be doing anything else, like admiring Perrin’s shoulders *snicker* as part of her growing desire to bond a new Warder. And it’s ironic that Perrin later wishes he could keep the Two Rivers folk from going on about his golden eyes and his special abilities, when it’s his own indifference to them knowing now that plants the seeds. Of course since his grief over his family is why he’s indifferent, that takes the humor out of the irony.
Also I cannot let this pass by without commenting: of all the funny commentary, turns of phrase, and memorable bits you’ve used in the re-read, Leigh, I always got the biggest kick out of “MY PLANS, LET ME SHOW YOU THEM!” To the point it’s kind of taken on a life of its own in my own household, under numerous variations. Though I do agree with the original reason for the sentiment: it’s maddening when by dramatic irony you know something characters are saying or doing is going to go very wrong, and there’s nothing you can do to stop it. Of course this does not stop me from using the same technique in my own writing, since it makes for great reader investment to find out what happens next (and yes, some of that delicious schadenfreude pie).
Side note: Perrin’s recitation in his head of the dead men lost is very reminiscent of what Rand does later with his women. Obviously this gets dropped fairly quickly as Perrin becomes inured to what happened and starts focusing only on Faile (and, as noted in 41, caring for the living), but I bring it up to show that even if it doesn’t last long, it proves this tendency isn’t only a Rand thing: it reveals once again how noble and caring the boys are, as good leaders should be.
Aram will of course trouble us much more to come, but I had to laugh at Perrin’s bombshell about Egwene being Aes Sedai and refusing to dance with him (true, but because she has eyes for Galad and Gawyn now, not because of the Power). If he knew she was with the Aiel right now, he’d want nothing to do with her! Also, Faile’s reaction to Perrin’s comment on Aram’s smiling is cute.
I rather think Perrin’s comment about ta’veren not being able to fight the Way of the Leaf is foreshadowing of how the Way, and the Da’shain, will come again when the Wheel turns back to the Second Age.
Yup, Faile is at her most awesome in this very wonderful scene, still always a favorite of mine. I have to also mention that at a later point Leigh had mentioned that she thought Perrin never told her the full extent of what his being a wolfbrother meant, and so she didn’t know he could smell her different moods when she was trying to hide them from him, meaning she wasn’t deliberately flaunting her smell and then refusing to explain herself to him. I’m not sure if this scene proves that theory false since I don’t have my book available to check, but I suspect that even if he mentioned a heightened sense of smell among his abilities (since she refers to knowing he has sharp ears now), he probably didn’t tell her it specifically allowed him to suss out very detailed and precise emotions. So Leigh’s theory could still be right!
Anyway, love the commentary on Deira, love Faile’s pet title for Perrin and how it turns out to be foreshadowing of prophecy (and while Slayer did, in a sense, dispute his claim in ToM and especially AMoL, we all know how that turned out! *fierce grin*). Also: “Perrin stares, and thinks that meeting Trollocs again might possibly be less frightening than meeting her parents.” You have no idea, Perrin!
As for the whole issue of the Way of the Leaf…all I can say is something I’ve been reminded of a lot due to recent events, that tolerance of intolerance is not true tolerance. That basically, while in an ideal world we’d never have to use violence and could all be perfect pacifist people, and thus there would never be any reason to be intolerant either, in reality it is sadly different. Being so tolerant you allow intolerance to still happen is as bad as being so much a pacifist you don’t do anything to stop or discourage violence. And of course as we all know, the only thing evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Obviously there’s various degrees of doing “something”, and it isn’t out of the realm of possibility that providing an example the way the Tinkers do couldn’t show the violent and intolerant the error of their ways…but it’s very unlikely. And regardless, it doesn’t change the fact that meanwhile the only way to stop a lot of violence, or protect the victims of it, is to be violent, just as to achieve true tolerance, you have to be intolerant of the intolerance that eventually leads to such violence. It’s an awful catch-22, but while we must consider and at least see the value in the Tinkers’ point of view, and violence/contention should never be our automatic go-to, in the end we still have to be ready to disagree, to call out injustice and intolerance, and employ violence when it is warranted.
@5 Nick31: Well said. And even more so at 20! That last part is especially what I was getting at.
@6 gadget: To be fair, we don’t know what will happen to Perrin post-Tarmon Gai’don. While “the world not done with battle”, I’d like to think he would in fact get the chance to rest and live a life of peace and nonviolence like he wanted. Of course I’m not sure how Faile would feel about that…I guess it depends on if she equates a strong husband with a belligerent one, but despite her fiery nature I think she very much loves and respects Perrin for his gentleness (I believe she says as much at one point), so even though she’s a Borderlander she’d be happy to have a life without fighting. In fact that’d make her want it more, since I believe it was mentioned in TEotW that the Borderlanders more than anyone long for peace, even if they never believe it can be achieved.
@7 dptullos: So very much this. The sad thing is, as long as there are people who believe in and reject an Other, there will be need of people willing to do violence to protect those Others. Also your analysis at 19, and the “Tinkers accept that everyone is real ” paragraph in 26, are especially excellent.
@9 Starsaphire: Interesting, I never thought of that role opposite the Dark One’s. Food for thought.
@11 forkroot: Agreed. As to whether it was meant to be shown/mulled upon more, who knows, but I think it is telling that Egwene was drawn by Need to a Tinker camp just before the Seanchan attack on the Tower, and that we got to see Raen and Ila during the Last Battle. This makes me suspect these bits were mandated in the notes, so only seeing the part with Rand in flashback was also mandated. Unless Sanderson was just trying to save space/time, or Team Jordan decreed it.
@15 Aladdin_Sane: I believe that connection is made somewhere, whether on the Encyclopedia, the Thirteenth Depository, or Dragonmount.
@16 birgit: Ooo yes I forgot the exact wording there. That explains it, mystery solved!
@17 Tessuna: I didn’t even think about those Dr. Strange comparisons, but they make a lot of sense! I wish I could see it/discuss it with you, but just let me reiterate, I totally agree. :)
@18 MattM: Very good points, although since we are readers in the 21st century we can’t help but project our experience and knowledge onto the books, and Jordan knew this, since he was also obviously putting his own into it as well. While we do need to view and criticize objectively, it’s rather difficult separating real experiences and beliefs from what we read about. This doesn’t mean we should never try, just that if we don’t separate them completely we haven’t necessarily failed; it is often enlightening seeing where reality and fantasy differ, and the latter can provide lessons we can apply to the real world. And while it is arguably stupid, or at least rather thoughtless and self-endangering, to be pacifists in a world of such violence, it can’t be denied that choosing to be so and sticking to it displays a certain determination and courage.
@29 dptullos: Unfortunately I suspect it’s more of the “hammer/nail” truism at work, i.e. because the Borderlanders are so used to using violence all the time against Shadowspawn it’s become second nature to them and harder to employ more finessed, nuanced means.
My thoughts on the Way of the Leaf are that it might have been given that name specifically to point out the flaws in the philosophy. Their description of how the leaf doesn’t fight fate, it just grows where it is, dies when it dies, and is carried away by the winds, ignores the existence of the rest of the tree. The tree that breaks the ground, eats the nutrients of the dead, pushes branches to crowd out neighbors so the leaf gets more sun that the competition, kills parasites by smothering them with sap, etc. The Leaf can only live because the rest of the tree protects it, sometimes violently.
That’s the metaphor I see in them. The Way of the Leaf is a relic of the Age of Legends, when the entirety of society cherished and protected its adherents, and its adherents served and saw to the well-being of society. The modern leafers shun the rest of society, and whether they are right to or not, it makes the way of the leaf non-viable because there’s no tree for the leaf to grow on.